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  • Amandelen
    Amandelen closed this thread because:
    Discussion is over.
    20:27, May 22, 2020

    https://old.reddit.com/r/Vocaloid/comments/df78lj/theblackcero_hnys_partner_has_deleted_his_account/ the account is gone again, for anyone wondering (so some of the pages on here that had their reprinted subs would have to be edited/removed)

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    • Her blog is also privated for now, it seems

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    • The comments on reddit are painting things in a somewhat biased way, I was there, Cero was very inflammatory in his "apology" in the face of criticism. I think people might have gone slightly overboard in a sense, but this is in response to a highly condescending post written in response to Kaja rightfully taking down their unauthorized reprint. It was repeated behavior so I understand people being harsh... they aren't children and this isn't the first time this has happened. Fact of the matter is, I kind of hate to be the one to bring it up, but in the video Cero gave a very hyperbolic "Don't put our translations on the wikia because they're tainted! We didn't get permission for any of them!! >:D". He's obviously being hyperbolic and trolling about the wikia part but I'm wondering what is going to happen. Hazuki has 1,400+ translations on here. They're acting like children because they got criticized once (most of it was pretty gentle!), mostly from people just asking them to do better. This is just trouble for you wikia staff honestly. I feel terrible, it's enough having to clean dead links AGAIN. Do you guys intend to take this statement about the usage of their translations at face value or...? I honestly can only see this as a net loss for everyone. It's nonsense.

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    • Well, so far ppl seem to have been removing the subbed links now that it's gone, though not sure if we should remove all the translations too. I guess we can replace them if there's alternates but I guess it would be good if we got some official statement from Hazuki herself if she wants everything taken down (since the 'apology' video was apparently just a livestream on a deleted channel, would've been more convenient if they just left that vid up by itself for posterity. But i guess that's up to the admins?)

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    • I see. Thank you for your hard work as always guys. It's a tough road ahead either way. I personally agree with waiting for Hazuki to say something herself (though based on previous behavior this is unlikely), or at least having something tangible to refer to over an extremely hyperbolic video that self destructed after one live showing.

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    • https://hazukinoyume.wordpress.com/ Seems she wants us to remove them now

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    • My impression is that they're being immature. They got in trouble once for doing something they should have realized was wrong. Repeating the same mistake is inexcusable.

      Now HnY has requested all copies of her translations removed. Apologies if I have misinterpreted her intentions, but to me it seems like a kind of payback: "The world hates me for doing something nice to them (complaining I've made translated videos) so the world shouldn't have anything I've done for them (so remove all my translations whether they're legal or otherwise)."

      While it's not wrong to respect her wishese, I think it would be a shame to delete all that hard work over what might be spite. Plus neither we nor she doesn't know how she would feel in a couple of years time. After things have cooled down, she might regret what she's saying now.

      This is a wiki and it's open to the public. Anything we do is volunteer work and we're not compelled to keep every single page up to date. Personally I'm too busy translating other songs to go edit hundreds of already translated pages. So we could just leave it to her to come and delete anything she doesn't want us to have.

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    • Yeah, seems like a waste (tho just in case ppl should prolly save the translations to their own files for personal ref in the future.) And a handful of their translations was added to the NND upload too, and i don't think ppl can delete comments there unless the uploader themselves removes the whole vid

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    • Having a closer look, she says:

      Please do not put my translations on any uploads, closed captions, wikis

      I interpret "do not put" as adding new instances of a translation. As for past additions, she says:

      Removal of past uses of my translations is greatly appreciated

      So she's not insisting on it, only that she would prefer it. Maybe we can say that we'll endeavour to replace her translations with alternatives as they become available.

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    • I'm honestly a bit torn, because on one hand I want to respect the wishes of authors and remove their work if they want it removed. On the other hand, as others have noted, this seems very much like spite to me. If it's indeed spite it'll likely go away after some time, after which HnY might have changed her mind. If that'd be the case we'd have put a whole lot of work, likely greatly displeasing the community (which might cause even more drama on top of this), basically for nothing.

      ElectricRaichu wrote: Maybe we can say that we'll endeavour to replace her translations with alternatives as they become available.

      I think this is probably the best course of action to take right now.

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    • I don't understand why they would hard sub and reprint a video that already has the same subs in the CC...why do the extra work? Plus, it's a tribute song to one of the most beloved producers in the community.

      Anyway, is it not possible to just hide the translations? 

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    • Kinda feels hypocritical to me for people to talk so much about "respecting the wishes of authors," but when those wishes are stated, we don't follow them anyway though ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Guess I could help remove the translations here and there when I see them.

      Solar: You do know that the CC on the producer's video was only added after they put out the hard subs? Where else do you think people got her translation for that song?

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    • Ah sorry, I thought that the subs were on the original video first, since it was a collab with a lot of producers, I thought they got in contact with HnY. That's why the reprint part didn't make sense to me. My mistake m(_ _)m

      You know why the admins are reluctant to remove the translations. There's way too many of them, and a lot of popular songs too. It just seems unfair to cut off the non-Japanese community from quality translations (which are hard to come by in the first place) over something that seems like spite.

      Besides, they'll never be completely wiped from existence anyway, so it just feels like we're doing something pointless and wasting our time. Though if HnY REALLY wants her translations gone, we have to respect that.

      I'm just upset that all this had to be associated with a tribute song to wowaka. Like the focus has shifted and despite of it being a place where we could remember him, it's going to leave a bitter taste for some people instead.

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    • I mean, if they were added after they could have also just added it to the CC and not made the reprint in the first place, especially since Kaja asked in the description to not reprint the song (if message was not added after the reprint was made). The translation could have been overwritten, though, so I kind of get why they wanted hard subs I guess?

      @SolarTwT In theory you'll be able to get the transation back by going into the history of the page, as the history can't be deleted. It's kind of a pain to look it back up, though.

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    • But did they have to delete the entire channel just because he asked them to take it down? Or was it because of the mean comments in the livestream?

      Yeah, that's why I said they'll never be completely wiped off XD. It's just, in case HnY changes her mind later on, removing them would literally have been for nothing. 

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    • Even if it's spite, I feel like it's not our place to decide whether she actually meant it or not, or to speculate whether she'll change her mind later on. The translations will never be completely wiped from existence, but it seems like the right thing to do to delete them, idk. Plus, it doesn't feel like a good look for the wiki when people click on the source links and see that she says not to use her translations? I mean, maybe it's not technically wrong to keep the translations up, but personally it's easier on my conscience to remove them.

      Amandelen: The "do not reprint" message was added later.

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    • From what I've heard, the livestream was a way to announce that every video would be deleted (see "Purification in progress...", screenshot by YellowSmugmarine). We can't be entirely sure what their reason was for deleting everything as they're not here to tell it. In the video itself they said it was because the translations were made with wrong intentions or something like that, which is also why they want them removed. That's kind of vague, though, especially since HnY had a list of producers from which she had explicit permission to reprint and translate on her blog. Were the translations for the songs of those producers made with bad intentions too? This is why it seem like they did it because they were critisized by Kaja and other members of the community for not asking permission before reprinting, and why people (including me) are saying their actions are spiteful.
      @Iwtd: I guess that makes their mistake a bit more understandable. You do make a fair point about the source links, though I think most of the community knows what's going on (or can easily find out about it). I guess we'll be able to add them back if she ever changes her mind ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

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    • So basically, they uploaded the reprint first, the CCs were added to the original, and they were later told to take the reprint down? And then they announced that they would delete the channel again, since none of the videos were reprinted with permission? 

      I mean, I don't want to keep the translations against HnY's wishes either. Sigh. I'll help to remove them too.

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    • I've added a category to the Translator License template to track the pages that have a translation by a specific translator. This means we now have a category with all pages which feature a translation by HnY. This at least makes it easier to look them up, and will make it easier to change things when something like this happens again.

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    • Waaaa, thank you so much Amandelen TwT TwT!! This makes it easier to remove to translations too! Is it possible to do it for translators without a license too?

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    • Not as of right now, as we'd need a template to do that. We could maybe make a template for translators, which would make it possible to add a category for every translator like on UTAU Lyrics Wiki. It'll probably be easier to search for the translations using more specific googling (like so) when needed, though, as finding all translators that are featured on this wiki is a lot harder than just googling their name and checking if they're featured on this site.

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    • That's super helpful! Thanks Amandelen!

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    • Um ... Iwtd seems to have started deleting some of the translations ... Can you please wait to see if we can find alternative translations first?

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    • Maybe we should make a poll so people can vote on what to do (like last time)? That way we can include the visitors and such too. I myself am still kind of torn on what to do (though looking for alternative translations still seems like the best option to me right now), which is why I'm not really taking action either way. Doing a poll will help find the solution most people are happy with.

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    • Well, if someone finds alternative translations, they can add them to the pages. I'm doing the removal part since that's what HnY said she wants (and it's the ethical thing to do).

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    • I don't think upsetting all the people who rely on her translations is ethical. HnY says their removal is "appreciated", not demanded.

      What I did not want to happen was for people to rush in and delete them without due consideration, so could you please undelete the material until we decide as a community what to do? If in good conscience you can't do that, then at least please stop deleting anything else for now.

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    • The translator explicitly said that she'd appreciate it if her translations are removed, but if you guys think it's more important to not upset other people, then fair enough. It's a double standard, but I guess you gotta do what you gotta do ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    • I don't think it's a double standard, it's a difficult and not clear-cut situation. However, your comment has forced me to clarify my thoughts. While I would like to respect her wishes, at the same time:

      • she is only requesting, not demanding, we remove her material
      • she previously gave explicit permission for us to host her material, so it's unfair to change her mind on us now
      • it will upset our readers
      • I have the suspicion that she's being spiteful

      Taking all that into consideration, I think the best thing to do is to replace her material where alternative translations can be found but to leave the rest as they are.

      Amandelen, what do you think?

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    • I checked and I have translations of a few of the songs. I won't be able to do anything more here probably for several days for various reasons (including my daughter's getting married on Saturday!). If anyone else is motivated enough, feel free to replace with my translations.

      There's a link to the corresponding page here in the links tab and you can download the lyrics including translation to a pop-up window using the down-arrow icon.

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    • Congratulations on your daughter's wedding ElectricRaichu! I'll also replace the translations you linked today.

      I think the best course of action to take is make a poll where visitors can vote, because I don't think we'll ever make a decision (as I don't think I'll make up my mind soon) otherwise. I'll write and post it today.

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    • I'd respect her request of removal if it were person to person business that matters, but in this case we need to take good faith into consideration. She is not supposed to nullify her former terms of use about her translation.

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    • She added another message to her blog

      "Postscript: It has come to my attention that there may be some comprehension problem regarding my statement above.
      To clarify, by “Removal of past uses of my translations is greatly appreciated,” I mean that I would like all past uses of my translations to be removed.
      This includes subbed videos, closed captions, wikis, etc.
      Any use of my translations should be considered unauthorized and an infringement of copyright."

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    • I mean, that sucks, but at least is makes the decision easier I guess? I figured something like this would happen, we'll just have to wait a few days and see what comes out of the last poll, though I suspect it'll mean removing all the translations.

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    • How long does the poll last?

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    • I think a few more days? I plan to close it around Sunday, than most people have had the chance to vote.

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    • If you end up removing the translations, is there an easy way you could provide a list of all the songs affected? 

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    • I've made a list in a blog post with all pages affected here. Most pages are not a direct link because I got them from AutoWikiBrowser (I'm trying to make a bot, so I have it installed). Since they're all in HnY's current category, those should be all Vocaloid songs that HnY has ever translated (except maybe a few to which we didn't have transcribed kanji available). I unfortunately don't have a list of songs outside of VOCALOID she translated, but I think others in the wider community might have.

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    • Be kinda hard to replace/overwrite closed captions on YT, but hopefully there isn't too many more issues/problems with the composers themselves as well b/c of community/fandom conflict (i think a handful of her translations are on the direct nicovid themselves and you can't delete comments, even if you were the original commenter or the composer themselves unless they delete and reupload their works)

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    • if it's of any help, a list of every translation she made is available on Wayback, including non-Vocaloid songs.

      http://web.archive.org/web/20171004010045/https://hazukinoyume.wordpress.com/index/

      edit: probs worth mentioning that this doesn't include TLs on TBC's channel though

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    • I personally think it'd be a bit unethical to remove the translations, it's a way for us to understand so many people's feeling in songs, and the thought of a purge of over a thousand translations is just saddenning... 

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    • Definitely. If the translations are going to be cut off from the non-Japanese speaking audience, who rely on them for their entire comprehension of the songs, then what was the point of translating it?

      That being said, I wish translators in the western part of the fandom were directly "hired" by the producers, like how they collab with illustrators, mixers etc. Often times when the producers do provide translations, they're (unfortunately) inaccurate. Besides, if the translators are more familiar to the English-speaking fandom, that part of the audience is likely to be more engaging.

      Idk a whole lot about it though so I'm probably missing the finer details behind translator-producer relations.

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    • I'm gonna add this just in case, even though, i'm preety sure you guys already know.

      It's outright imposible to take down published CC. So the only way to "remove" them is to find another translation and then click the "Looks good" button enough times (which i think has increased. Example: if before only three people needed to click "Looks good", now six or more need to click it, i think. It's hard to confirm such things). Basicaly overwrite it.

      What this means is, if there is no alternative translation for songs like Luna's "Heal Me", Pinocchio's "Bokura wa minna imi fumei", etc., then, unless she herself can talk to the producers, tells them to remove the translations, and they answer('cause most producers don't really care about CC or translations, other than the ones they chose, meaning they can outright ignore the message) agree and can remove them (because i don't know what the uploaders themsevles can do with CC other than lock), those translation are staying up and there is nothing we can do about it.

      Because even if she convinces them, they might not be able to remove the translation (i personaly doubt it but this is youtube we're talking about, anything is possible.).

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    • I've heard that now, only the uploaders themselves can approve CCs. So unless you directly contact the producer, you can't take them down. Plus most of the CCs were added by people who chanced upon them and took the time to add them to the captions. Who knows how many of her translations are floating around in CCs, since according to her previous terms, adding them to CCs of the original upload was fine.

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    • By the way I forgot to ask, how are we to go about removing her translations? Should we start from the more popular pages or the ones that don't get much engagement?

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    • SolarTwT wrote: By the way I forgot to ask, how are we to go about removing her translations? Should we start from the more popular pages or the ones that don't get much engagement?

      I don't think it really matters that much TBH. Either way should be fine.

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    • SolarTwT wrote:
      I've heard that now, only the uploaders themselves can approve CCs.

      I doubt that's true. I haven't checked to make sure, though. I can try to. It shouldn't be hard, at least, since the translations added by the uploaders are all locked.

      EDIT1: I added a few translation recently that haven't been approved as of now (but that's never something that happens fast unless you have people to help you with it, or the video is new and popular) but i have added the CC for the Bring it On! Remix which was uploaded three months ago. I really doubt they changed it but i'll still check. 

      EDIT2: Yep, nothing changed (... or if it did, youtube is extremely awful to not say anything in its "help" article, which should always be up to date). Youtube Help Contribute translated content

      The only thing that might've changed is the how many people have to click "Looks good" before the CC gets published without the uploader's intervention.

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    • I doubt that's true. I haven't checked to make sure, though. I can try to. It shouldn't be hard, at least, since the translations added by the uploaders are all locked.

      No, it's true. I'm not sure how to present proof because it was weeks ago and lost into the ether by now but I've seen uploaders talk about it on twitter. I think it's better this way personally, but even if it was there's no way to remove a translation as mentioned earlier. I think most producers have the decency to respect the terms of a translator, especially since respect for people's terms of use is a big thing there thankfully but, like. We also have to consider that some may find it silly and backwards, though I do feel it would be in the minority. Most producers DO look at formal correspondence (Twitter DMs, email), even super big producers, but there are big ones who also don't. Slippery situation honestly

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    • "If you're happy with the content, click Looks good to finish your review. When a submission gets enough reviews, it will be automatically approved — or it can be approved by the owner."
      Youtube Help Contribute translated content

      I don't want to doubt you or say you are lying but this is what it says on their "help" article. And as i said, it'd be really awful for them to lie on their "help" article. It might be a new feature that only a few youtubers got, but as of now what you are saying is, at least, not the norm.

      EDIT1: Uploaders can have CC subtitles on their videos and not have CC on, and they can lock CC so that no one but themselves can edit them. But CC can still be published without the uploader's intevention.

      EDIT2:Well, the point is it'd be hard to remove the CC translations without contacting the producers themselves. I just wanted to mention it because i feel like there are people that don't understand how CC works. I didn't want to derail the conversation. This is about HnY's translations not how CC works, so i'll stop talking about it here.

      If i'm wrong about CC being published without the uploader's intevention then that's okay. I might look into it later myself.

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    • Hi, I'm back for a while. I've thought long and hard about this and I think that it would be wrong to remove her translations even if she demanded it (which now it appears she does). On the contrary, we should make every effort to preserve them.

      Basically, they are a cultural asset. Not a perfect analogy, but if Michelangelo came back with a spray can and wanted to deface his paintings because he was now sick of them, not only would there be opposition, but people would physically try to stop him. Whether she likes it or not, her translations have become part of this community's culture and it would be a shame to obliterate all this creative work.

      Secondly, if she gave permission in the past to host them but is now withdrawing it, it's like an author who has released a book and then withdrawn it from sale. I don't think an author can demand people return books they have purchased in the past. (Not that it changes anything but I'm very disappointed in how hypocritical it is for her to insist on her rights when she's brought on this trouble by not respecting other people's rights.) So while I don't know all the legalities involved, we may not be obliged to follow her demand anyway.

      Perhaps as a compromise, we can remove the translation from the page, but add a note: "A translation by Hazuki no Yume has been deleted in accordance with the translator's request. For reference, it is available in the page history but should not be restored until it has entered the public domain."

      That way, (a) the translation has been removed, (b) someone could look for it if another translation was unavailable and they're despereate enough, (c) some future day, the translation can be legally restored.

      NB The translation won't be in the public domain in our lifetime, but should the wiki remain in existence by then, at least our descendents will know that a translation is available for use legally.

      AFAICT the Wayback Machine did not capture all of her translations, but we should link to those that have been.

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    • I really like the idea of adding a disclaimer saying that a translation is still available in the page history, with the exception of pages that have been replaced with TLs from other translators - it makes things more accessible IMO.

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    • I agree wholeheartedly with the note idea. I'll make a template so it'll be easier to add.
      EDIT: I've made a template. It's a basic text message with the possibility to add a link if necessary. I think posting at the end of the lyrics is most convenient, but feel free to comment if you think otherwise. It doesn't add the pages to a category, but that can easily be done if needed.
      EDIT2: Upon some reflection I decided to add a category in the hopes that'll make it easier to see of which pages the translation has been removed.

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    • I'm literally begging you all to keep the translations up.

      If you use google's archive machine, those pages won't always be available. They'll disappear after a certain amount of time, and they didn't even have all of the translations archived in the first place.

      I'm a monolingual. All of that music, all of that culture--you're telling me that it'll be gone forever, just because they changed their minds?

      Please don't take my favorite songs away.

      I was a long-time follower of HnY--I always liked and commented on their videos, always supported them. But this is different. This is bigger than HnY or TheBlackCero, bigger than you or me. They had a major part in a cultural movement, and removing their translations would be like book-burning.

      Basically, the fandom is counting on this Wiki. Without it, monolingual fans will scramble to save and re-upload whatever they can--and I have no doubt that toes would get stepped on, unrelated permissions would be violated, and translations would get distorted. You guys have the opportunity to preserve these pieces of history as respectfully as possible.

      You can either choose to ignore HnY's absurd betrayal of trust, or you can throw the fandom into disarray. I don't think it's possible to comply with HnY while also acting in the fandom's best interest.

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    • My thoughts are a bit all over the place right now, so I apologize if the next few paragraphs are jumbled. Feel free to ask questions and I'll clarify.

      Over the past few days I've thought about this a lot and I also think we should keep the translations. I am almost certain they're acting out of spite, and I don't really want to follow someone's wishes if they're only made out of spite. I don't really have anything further to add to the discussion except maybe this link where she gave explicit permission to us ("various wikia's") to use her translations, and as Damesukekun said good faith should legally allow us to still use the translations.

      71.121.174.79 is also right that the poll doesn't represent the whole fandom, as it doesn't even represent our daily visitors (we average about 27K visitors a day as of right now). Furthermore, most people only voted on the first poll, so even when only looking at the people who bothered to read the thread the last poll isn't representative. The results of the first poll were clearly in favour of keeping the translations, and the "No" option in the last poll is also slowly getting more votes (honestly I'm pretty sure if I were to make an announcement again that poll would get No as the largest answer pretty fast), I think it's fair to say the community wants us to keep the translations.

      I've already made a template with a notice for the removed translations, it is not hard to make one that explains the reason why the translation stays up against the author's wishes (actually I just did, see here). Adding such a template to a page is also way easier than removing all of HnY's translations, since it can easily be done using a bot (so easily in fact that I've already set up a bot). This would save us a lot of work.

      Lastly, I want to apologize. This hassle dragged on way longer than necesssary partly (if not mostly) due to my indecisiveness on the issue. I should have made up my mind earlier. I'll do my best to be more decisive if something like this occurs again.

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    • I don't think it's your fault for not being able to arrive at a decision quickly. It IS a weird situation especially if you want to respect everyone's wishes. Not to mention everything happened way too suddenly with them wanting to basically purge all their work. I'll be honest, I find it so childish. What exactly are they going to achieve from doing this? It's just a negative for everyone, including them.

      I'm conflicted though, especially because I don't want the wiki to face problems and drama in the future over this crap. You guyd work hard to keep everything okay as much as you can, so it's really upsetting to see you guys mull over this so much.

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    • Thank you, I apreciate that =). I hope that by adding a template explaining the decision we'll aleviate most problems we might face due to this, but we won't know if it works unless we try it. Additionally, we'll probably also face problems if we remove all the translations. The only way we won't have any problems is if they didn't want their translations purged in the first place.

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    • I really have a lot of feelings about how ridiculous this is but complaining won't really help anyone. They're basically just exploiting their influence. So even if we keep HnY's translations up with a template, are we still going to replace them when we can? Because if they're up, I doubt people would want to request for new translations (which is unnecessary but..you know, this.) Before the template idea, I thought we could keep her most popular pages up and remove the rest, that way a good portion of the community would be fine.

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    • Amandelen, please don't apologize. Taking your time was the right thing to do. It took me a long time too. This is not a straightforward problem and you needed time to think about the issues and the wishes of everyone involved. On the contrary, it's better than making a rushed decision.

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    • Thank you.

      I've moved the template in my sandbox to this page, and tweaked my bot a little to replace the old template with that one. I guess we'll go with keeping the translations and replacing them where possible?

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    • I'm happy with the outcome and the final form of the notice.

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    • In that case I'll run my bot programme.
      EDIT: I'll wait a bit until the account gets a proper bot flag, as it'll clog the recent changes otherwise. The bot works, so I'll be able to run it properly pretty soon.

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    • Thanks Amandelen!!!

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    • No problem =). I got the bot flag. The changes should be done in about an hour a few hours or so.
      EDIT: The bot is done. All relevant pages should have the new template now.

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    • Thank goodness the wiki kept the translations up.

      You post something on the Internet, expect it to stay there forever. Thinking you can "erase" your work is stupid and quite frankly, insulting. Good riddance.

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    • 98.210.148.211 wrote:
      Thank goodness the wiki kept the translations up.

      You post something on the Internet, expect it to stay there forever. Thinking you can "erase" your work is stupid and quite frankly, insulting. Good riddance.

      EXACTLY. THIS.

      Also: Translations do not deserve copyright - you are not the owner of the Japanese lyrics. You are using dictionaries and context to change its language. Waah, my configuration of words is mine >:( is pathetic. Additionally, as translations are a service to people who cannot understand the source material, removing them is a cunt move.

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    • It feels what they did is.. petty. Is that the right term?

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    • If you own a site or a channel, there are good reasons to have the right to delete it. Just because it annoys someone else is not a good reason to deny people that right. For example, what if you posted like a blog or a video that you thought was valid at the time but after further investigation turns out to be misleading, maybe even hurtful to someone else?

      Translations are not as simple as a word by word conversion. There is a lot of art and skill involved, and I mean a lot. Word for word translations can even be misleading because an expression in one language and culture can be meaningless or mean something different in another. What if you want to convey the effect of artistic devices such as atmosphere, suspense, aliteration, puns? It's not straightforward at all.

      AFAIK under normal circumstances, translation copyright is jointly owned by the translator and the original copyright owner. When the translator acted without the original copyright owner's permission, however, I have no idea.

      Yes I felt that it was spiteful but ultimately we'll probably never know their true feelings.

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    • It does not matter why they wish for them to be removed. It is their work, so screw off.

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    • Please stay civil. Also, this discussion is already over. There is no point in trying to revive it and trying to make us change policy on this issue.

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